How to Make Blockchain Useful with Neyma – Transcript

This is a transcript of the Podcast – How to Make Blockchain Useful with Neyma – You can listen the audio here


Nye : What is going on, everybody? What is going on? As always, it is your boy, Nye, and welcome to another episode of Evolvement. The financial podcast where we talk about bitcoin, cryptocurrency, and the future of our financial systems. I wanna give a shout out to our sponsors, and the first sponsor is Veracity. Veracity helps solve the lack of transparency around advertisers abusing user’s data. Right now, video ads are intrusive for viewers and ineffective for advertisers. Veracity aims to solve this by allowing creators, viewers, advertisers and brands to directly interact with one another. Learn more at

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Nye : Today, I’ve got a really good friend on the line. This is Neyma, he’s the founder of Unification. We’re gonna sit down today, and we’re gonna talk about Blockchain technology and how we can make it actually useful. Neyma, what’s going on, my man? How are you?

Neyma : How you doing, Nye? Thank you so much for having me on the show. When we talked about doing this show earlier, we were kind of joking that we could make the topic, make Blockchain useful again, but I’m kind of at a debate whether it’s actually ever been useful. I think we’re moving to the point where it is going to be useful soon.

Nye : Cool. I mean, that’s really what I want to talk about here. I really want to get into the use cases beyond just in the financial system, beyond all of these ICOs just having tokens on their platform and supposed utility tokens. We’re going to get into all of that, but before we get into it, man, can you just give a little bit of a background about who you are? How did you get into crypto and what were you doing before crypto?

Neyma : Okay, well, thank you for that. Well, my name is Neyma Jahan. I’m the founder of the Unification foundation, based out at Singapore. Our origin story is actually very interesting, and it’s a little bit different than a lot of people who’ve come into this industry. In January 2018, which is, essentially the height of the madness and the height of the Bull Run, I literally had almost no idea what crypto was and what Blockchain is. In terms of crypto years, I’m just about a year old, okay. Coming in, in the height of the madness, and not really having context for what was going on to the industry, it gave me some disadvantages, but it also gave me some advantages and some perspective, which we’ll go into in just a moment.

Neyma : To give some context, my background is technology development. Over the past 10 plus years, my core team and myself have done numerous projects ranging from SAS softwares. We had quite a bit of SAS softwares out there. We did quite a bit of direct response marketing, and we worked also in the health tech industry, with machine learning. Building out some neural networks for tracking health data.

Neyma : We have quite a bit of software development experience that wasn’t necessarily Blockchain specific, but these were developing software’s and useful tools for essentially end-consumers and sometimes SMEs to go and use. Now, when we came into the Blockchain industry in January 2018, we weren’t looking at it as like, oh, let’s go do an ICO and raise a lot of money and put it on the exchange and get a market maker, which is basically what everybody was doing. We were like, this Blockchain technology is fascinating. It’s absolutely fascinating on how this can be used for the practical future to effectively evolve civilization and evolve society.

Neyma : When we approached it, we really took that stance that is, we need to make something that people are going to use. This was very, very different than a lot of the projects out there. We like to joke that, if you remember last year, people are always saying, “Tech is important,” and I’ll put the words tech in quotation marks. We always joke that most importantly, in 2018 was the perception of tech. We really tried to ask ourselves, “what are we building? Are we rebuilding something that would be perceived good based on current market conditions, and people would like and they’d go and buy our coin and they’d find it useful? Or, are we actually trying to build something that could become an infrastructure that people actually use?”

Neyma : That’s kind of the short version of the foundation of where we’re coming from?

Nye : Very interesting, man, very interesting. When did we meet, originally? We’ve hung out in many different countries. I can’t even remember where we specifically met. Do you remember?

Neyma : I think it was thinking it was like LA or San Francisco or Las Vegas or Korea or Hong Kong or Bangkok. I’m not sure. I think we hung out a bunch in Las Vegas, was one of the one of the first times that we met before.

Nye : Yeah, I think it was Las Vegas. It was either that or Korea. Might have been Korea Blockchain week, but [crosstalk 00:05:50].

Neyma : Yeah, it was probably Korea.

Nye : I think it was Korea Blockchain week, ’cause our mutual friend, Miriam, probably introduced us there. Every time I talk to you, man, it’s really, really interesting. You have a really unique background. You’ve been doing a lot of things, and doing a lot of things very successfully for a long period of time. I’m glad to have you on the show today. I’m glad we’re going to sit down and chat a little bit. Let’s just get into like the very basics, in the very beginning of our conversation. We’re going to talk about how can we make Blockchain useful, or how can we make Blockchain great again?

Nye : What do you believe is the immediate use case for Blockchain? Obviously, we’ve seen it with bitcoin, and the potential it has to disrupt our financial system. Do you think that the financial aspects of Blockchain technology are the main use case, or are you looking at it in a different way? What is the impact this will have on our world?

Neyma : If I forget to answer that aspect of the question, please remind me. First, I’d like to address what Blockchain’s being used for right now in a ‘useful manner’. I can say that bitcoin, it’s doing essentially what it was designed to do about 10 years ago. It’s a very useful thing. The usefulness of bitcoin is to send bitcoin back and forth. I think it’s done a fantastic job, being able to do that in a secure, interestless manner. There’s definitely some usefulness in terms of bitcoin doing that. Then we have Ethereum. The foundations of the EVM and the smart contract system, which I think is the foundation for stage two of our entire development. The team has done some wonderful work developing out that system. We saw over the last two years, the usefulness of smart contracts.

Neyma : In practice, the only thing that they’re being useful for, because they’re based on a speculative coin value is effectively creating more Ethereum, or ERC-20s. This seems to be a hard line on the ground, usefulness use case for what Ethereum is useful. Now, the smart contract infrastructure is absolutely fantastic. Gavin, and everybody did a great job building that, and that’s revolutionary. But, there’s an inherent flaw in … It’s not a technical flaw, it’s more of a philosophical flaw, in not only Ethereum, but almost all Blockchain platforms. It’s the elephant in the room, nobody has really wanted to look at because everybody making so much goddamn money.

Neyma : With the way it is, you can’t have a functional smart contract infrastructure platform, based around a coin that’s speculative and value to power it. Any sort of real-world use case outside of; la-la ICO land, pump it on exchange, dump my coin and go on crypto Twitter, any sort of any sort of use case, is by real companies with real profit margins or real expenses. They literally cannot run a business, if Ethereum’s at $100 today, and it costs them three cents to make a transaction, and then, some bozo tweets on Twitter a few times, and Ethereum’s at $1,000. Then suddenly, that same transaction which cost them 30 cents to make, is costing them $3 to make. You can’t build businesses on that.

Neyma : That’s really the core elephant in the room that we’re addressing, is speculative coin value is inherently at odds with practical usage and adoption. Not only for gas of powering transactions on smart contract networks, but also for making any sort of long-term practical payment infrastructure, and such. Did I answer the question? I remember earlier, I said, “Roll me back if I forgot to answer the question.”

Nye : I mean, not really. I kind of want to come back to the question to be honest with you, because this is way more interesting than that. What do you think has to happen then? Obviously, we’ve got Ethereum, and it is built on the speculative coin investment of ETH price, whether it goes from $100 to $1,000, whatever that will do. Obviously, as we’ve seen over the last two years or so, the main use case for Ethereum, while they’re trying to build DApps and other things on it, the main really use case is raising funds for an ICO, which is another speculative coin investment. What do you think needs to happen here? How do you think we can utilize this Blockchain technology? Let’s let me rephrase that. Do you think we can utilize this Blockchain technology and the speculative coin investments at the same time, or are we going to have to split these two up?

Neyma : It’s a really good question, I think the answer is really, really boring. It kind of parlays into a discussion of centralization versus decentralization. For sake of argument, and I don’t know if this is exactly true, but I don’t have facts or ammo to definitively argue one way or the other. For sake of argument, we say that Ethereum is a fully 100% decentralized network. We’ll just go ahead and start with that assumption for the sake of argument.

Neyma : Being a fully decentralized network, means that there is effectively no admin. Effectively having no admin means that it’s going to be at the hands of the users, which are effectively going to be the foragers. Miners, in Ethereum, they call them foragers. The business, which going and competing for a limited supply of Ethereum with no centralized backing, is going to go and inherently create this problem. Now, you could make a hack around it. People say, Maker DAO and Dai is the future with you collateralize 1.5x of your Ethereum, and then you get the stable coin. That’s a heck. I mean, that’s okay, for now. I think it’s really great for the thing, for right now, but it’s a hack, and it’s going to work but I don’t think it’s really a … You can’t really build a foundation of the operating system of the future based on a hack.

Neyma : People will make a lot of money in the meantime, going and doing that. The solution that, and I don’t know what the solution is, but the solution that we’ve been seeing and being proposed is it’s a decentralized/centralized model. Public/private hybrid. The way that this works, and the way that we’ve went and laid it out, is first off you, let’s say, we’re a developer and we have an idea for a DApp. Okay, this is some sort of decentralized application. How it’s being done right now, and we’ve been working with a lot of our enterprise clients developing out things like this. One for instance, healthcare records provider in a developing country,

Neyma : How most of them are approaching it right now is, if I want to store healthcare records that I want to go and store the healthcare records of our consumers, and we want our consumers to access these healthcare records, first line of thought is to go build out a smart contract system. Every time you go and upload a health record, you need to have a little bit of Ethereum in your wallet, you go and upload the health record and you pay the Ethereum, it records out on the Blockchain, you have all that information. Okay.

Neyma : That doesn’t work, because you’re on a smart contract on a speculative competitive court-coin environment. We think the answer is, instead of building that health record wallet on Ethereum, or even on another Blockchain, which has a speculative value, you’ll go create something called a work chain. A work chain is something like a side chain, and the way that it works, is that would be following proof of authority, so it’d be a federated method. Meaning, all the people within that infrastructure of the work chain would be handling validation. That effectively at an initial glance makes it a private Blockchain. Now people say, “Okay, private Blockchain, it’s centralized. It’s private. It’s not immutable,” et cetera, et cetera. Yes, I agree.

Neyma : But, then what you do is, on that private Blockchain, all of the transactions are effectively fast and free. Paid for by the validators. There’s no speculation, speculative coin price based in daily transactions, then what you do is you take the block headers of every block produced by that private Blockchain, and you timestamp it into a public chain. The masters of that Blockchain, of that private work chain, are essentially running it as their own business, but then they’re going and borrowing the official trust and proof of an immutable public chain and paying that tax.

Neyma : The speculation value on the public chain is isn’t laid on the daily users of the work chain. Rather, it’s just a little tiny tax that they need to pay to the public chain at the end of the day. That’s effectively the network for how I see Blockchain being scaling and useful. Private public hybrid and such. Does that all make sense, Nye?

Nye : It does, it does. Pretty much what you’re saying is, they’re going to utilize their own private Blockchain to run all the functions, to do all the things that they need to do in order to avoid the costs and the speculation in terms of price value of … What happens in terms of Ethereum going from $100, and it costing 30 cents to 1000, and costing $3. They’re avoiding all of that by using a private Blockchain, but they’re going to timestamp it on the public Blockchain. Is that specifically for the use case of having the information be like available and accessible to the public? Is that why they’re doing that?

Neyma : If you timestamp on a public Blockchain, the way that … I mean, you can obviously do anything you want, but the practical way that we’ve seen it working, is that let’s say we have Neyma Nye chain, Nye Neyma chain, right? We make our blocks, right? Maybe nobody knows what’s in those blocks. Maybe we’ve encrypted all the information in the blocks. It’s our private conversation, nobody can see it. What we can do is, we can take the headers, which is effectively a miracle tree of all the information in the blocks and condense it into an encryption string of say 100 characters, just for example. That hundred characters is a miracle tree, so that represents all of our encrypted information.

Neyma : We’ll just stamp that hundred-character miracle tree into the public key chain. Anybody on the public chain isn’t going to see the contents of our private conversation, they’re just going to go and see the encrypted headers of our conversation, which effectively can be translated back. Now, what this means practically is they can’t see what we’re doing in the current block. They can’t see what we’re doing in the previous blocks. What they will know, they’ll know is if we went back and tried to reorganize some of our previous blocks.

Neyma : It doesn’t give a full investigative power into the history of say, Neyma-Nye chain. What it does is it allows any sort of outside observer to know if we went back in history and try to rearrange things. It gives an added value of trust. Ultimately, no ultimate solution for full trust assist, but it means that bad actors can’t go … If you have a private work chain, a bad actor can’t go back into time of year and just change values in the database or change values in the blocks, because then the whole Merkel trees won’t line up, and there’ll be a flag and then it can be investigated from there.

Nye : Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. You’re pretty much saying that they’re putting the time stamp on there in order to avoid the private organization that runs the private chain, or the work chain to eliminate the possibility, or at least, drive down the possibility of manipulating past blocks and past information that could affect stakeholders, or could affect stockholders or whatever it might be?

Neyma : Yeah, and it works. If you look into, you know, the history of bitcoin development, there’s one gentleman named Peter Todd, who developed out a protocol. I don’t know if it’s a protocol or an API for time stamping on the empty space in bitcoin blocks. In this protocol, for developers, because I’m not quite sure if he’ll actually call it a protocol or not. You basically can take whatever information you want, you could take a snapshot of your database, or your music collection and condense it into an encrypted string. You could just pay a few pennies in bitcoin and include that in the empty space in a bitcoin block.

Neyma : This sort of idea has been going around for a little while. Ethereum even made … Not Ethereum, I’m sorry. Consensus even made a tool called Collider. I’m not quite sure how many people are using it, but we found it, which effectively will go and deploy a private instance of Ethereum, under I think Geth, which would be proof of authority. Then it has an automatic time stamping of your headers into the main Ethereum Blockchain. Concepts like this are really, really going to go and be the future, combined with a few other parts as well.

Nye : Pretty cool, really cool. Let’s even just like back it up, or even slow it down or simplify it a little bit for people, in terms of this whole conversation around Blockchain, because I think like what we just spoke about there is really relevant and really important. I also want to make sure that we have some simple information for people who might be listening who don’t even know the use of Blockchain outside of bitcoin. What do you think the use of immediate use of Blockchain could be? Or maybe not even immediate, but let’s say between now and 10 years out, what do you think is going to be an effective use for Blockchain, specifically, industry wide?

Nye : You know a lot about enterprise Blockchains, and things like that. Do you think this is going to have an effect on the current company models that are out there, or is this kind of just something around bitcoin and Finance?

Neyma : I can talk a little bit about what we’re working on at Unification and some of the practical case studies, some of the information. When you when you talked about, you mentioned bitcoin and Blockchain in the same sentence, and ultimately, for my purposes, in my narrow purposes, bitcoin necessarily doesn’t matter, except for the fact that it’s a mascot for Blockchain. As far as I’m concerned, bitcoin can stay, can go. It’ll probably stay, but it inherently doesn’t matter for the long-term growth of what’s going on with Blockchain.

Neyma : Now, for practical enterprise uses, it comes back to it comes back to these examples of what we’re talking about, these effectively, we like to call them work chains. I think it’s a more apt description, then side chains, because side chains can mean many, many different things. It’s all going to be on work chains. I can give you a few examples of private implementations that we’re working on from our consulting enterprise entity. We’re taking what I guess you could call the Linux Red Hat model. We’re working with open source software, like Linux, for example. We’re going and doing custom detailed implementations of this open source software for enterprises. Instead of an enterprise keeping 50 Blockchain engineers in-house, they’re going and hiring out companies to go and implement these.

Neyma : One really good example is a gaming is a game company. Let’s just say, for example, it’s a game company where you go and trade, various loot boxes, and swords and magic wands, and all these sort of things, okay. This has been gaming on the Blockchain has been talked about for the last year is being a major adoption and a major use case. The big problem when people talked about gaming on the Blockchain is, again, if I have a plus one sort of doom, I theoretically, if we were doing this as a dab, I would have to keep some Ethereum in my wallet to go trade this plus one sort of doom to somebody else. Which is just really no fun to do. But, if that plus one sort of doom and the entire gaming infrastructure was based on a private work chain, it wouldn’t cost me anything to go in, and trade that.

Neyma : Think of all the benefits of having all of your gaming items on a Blockchain without having to pay an outside third party cost. Another practical implementation is supply chain, for a work chain. Let’s say we have 10 entities in a supply chain consortium. Let’s say we’re following steel all the way from wherever they get steel from in the ground. I don’t quite understand the process of it, into packaging and processing and getting it to the construction site and putting it in a building.

Neyma : Let’s say there’s 10 different entities in this consortium of the entire supply chain, and they don’t necessarily trust each other. These 10 entities are going to form a consortium where they each do validation nodes within the word chain. Doing validation nodes within the word chain, they can see what each other is doing and inherently trust each other and then stamped this on to the main chain, on to the public chain.

Neyma : Another very good example that we talked about healthcare wallets earlier, is governmental stable coins. As far as I understand, right now, most stable coins are somewhat centralized. They don’t necessarily need to be centralized. It could be a consortium, they could be public, I don’t know.

Neyma : We’re in talks right now with a government in a developing country who wants to issue a stable coin, in order to effectively give out their government payments to contractors in order to increase transparency and reduce corruption. In their first implementation of the stable coin, they issued it as an ERC-20, which effectively means that while that coin might be stable, there are ways I can keep it stable, every single time one of their contractors interacts with the stable coin, that contractor has to hold Ethereum in their wallet, which is which is basically a major … Which is basically a major pain point, having to go in KYC and get Ethereum, and figure out your meta mask and not lose your private keys.

Neyma : They thought it’d be much easier to issue that stable coin on a private work chain, where the government and academics and universities all hold the consensus and they effectively make it free to transact. But then, they make all the records publicly available, and it’s verified by the universities. These are some very, very practical implementations as a pure Blockchain. When we get into time stamping, you could effectively take databases like an oracle database or a [inaudible 00:27:14] database, take a snapshot of that database, condense it into a miracle tree hash of it, and timestamp that on to the Blockchain.

Neyma : If you have single entry databases, which need to be tracked for security, you can timestamp those right now on to bitcoin, or you could timestamp those right now on to other sort of public chains. All of these implementations, it may not sound interesting, it may sound boring, but this is where real implementations happen. Is in, security and practicality and being functional, and such.

Nye : To me, honestly, it sounds very interesting. It’s a huge major issue that we look at. I think a lot of people look at bitcoin or look Ethereum as an investment and say, “Oh, well Ethereum is going to be utilized by all these …” I don’t know if many people believe this anymore, but I know that during the hype around, people were thinking, well, all these companies could utilize Ethereum as a smart contract platform, and they could utilize it for this and this and this. The matter of fact was, if you had any sort of … I mean, not to be offensive to people, but if you had any sort of foresight, you knew that wasn’t possible. You knew that Amazon isn’t it going to come in and utilize Ethereum. They’re just going to come in and utilize their own Blockchain.

Nye : The big question behind that lies in exactly what you’re describing, exactly what you’re explaining, is how can we still trust a centralized Blockchain? What is going to be different than the current systems of databases and all these other systems that we have in place right now? What’s going to be the difference? What you’re saying is, for example, if we have a supply chain, and we timestamp up the … Let’s say, we track an apple from the orchard all the way to Safeway, and we timestamp that on the Ethereum Blockchain, it allows us to, like Safeway can have their own Blockchain, or the food producer, whoever can have their own Blockchain that tracked the apple from being picked. From making sure that there were no blemishes and no worms in it, to going through the cleaning process through X, Y and Z processes that it took to get to Safeway.

Nye : Once it’s at Safeway, that food manufacturing company can timestamp it on the Ethereum Blockchain, on any other Blockchain, whatever Blockchain they choose, and that can show the public the proof that this has occurred. It would eliminate kind of the fear and the lack of transparency around the private Blockchain. Am I kind of catching all of that? Am I getting that right?

Neyma : More or less. I mean, more or less. I think you’ve got the spirit of how it works. How this would how this would work together is effectively the apple orchard, and the washing factory, and the trucking agency, and Safeway would all be part of a private consortium Blockchain. While the 11,000 nodes on Ethereum may not verify the fact that that apple got washed, the 10 entities within that consortium will verify it and they trust each other. Unless there’s some giant apple conspiracy, likely they’re going to be … And, that they’re implementing in real time, because they can’t change historical data, likely that information is going to true because every single member of that supply chain has effectively lendered their trust. Now, the difference between having a public private implementation like this and a fully public is it’s only the members of that supply chain have agreed to be trusted allies.

Neyma : Now, the entire industry is going and making a conspiracy to fake information about apples across all the players, there may not be much we can do about that except by going and using their public timestamp and reverse engineering, but all that information is there. It doesn’t add 100% trust, but there’s trade-offs. It’s trade-offs for trust versus time versus money versus usefulness. These are trade-offs that we have to go and make as we move into fully functional Blockchains.

Nye : It might not bring 100% trust, but the benefit is it brings more trust than the current system. Am I right? What are the other some of the other benefits of this, specifically for like consumers?

Neyma : Inherently, from a high philosophical level is it creates a system, just hooks and wires, nuts and bolts that allows all the vested players in an industry to create a network where they can trust each other. It’s just a technology. If there’s 10 people in a room, it’s a technology that allows us to trust and have cameras on each other and verify each other. It doesn’t mean that the people outside the room, know what we’re … And then every hour, we go in, we go and agree on this trust and pass it through an envelope to somebody outside the room who records that. It makes people within the system accountable to each other effectively.

Nye : Interesting, very interesting. This kind of all leads into the next part of the conversation that I want to have with you, is around fundraising and ICOs and things like this. I mean, this this essentially, would … This possible model would essentially revamp the entire perspective of ICOs as well, right? This would change everything. We’ve seen … I want to get into how it’s going to change everything. I want to discuss all that, but as we’ve seen over the last, I don’t know 12 months, the majority of ICOs are dead. Besides the recent effects of BitTorrent ICO, I’m not sure if you’re familiar, but BitTorrent, Justin Sun did that whole ICO via the Binance Launchpad platform. That went pretty well.

Nye : But the majority, I’d say 98 to 99% of ICOs are having trouble raising even 10% of their cap much less getting to their entire fundraise? Do you think that the ICO model is dead? Why or why not?

Neyma : Well, it’s a really good question. There’s lots of parts in that question. For our foundation Unification, in 2018, we actually started with the idea that we were going to do an ICO. We actually put some information out there that we’re going to do this ICO. Once we saw, once we had a better idea of what we were doing and what we were building, we wheeled back and decided not to do an ICO. The reason being is, not to get too much into inside baseball, because I’m not really sure how much of this is true public knowledge and how much of this is insider knowledge. Some of it, it’s not my place to say, but from what I understood about the ICO industry, the fundraising and subsequent liquidity for people that are buying your tokens, inherently had nothing to do with the usefulness of the product that you were building. It was more about the perception of the usefulness.

Neyma : People that were looking to invest were effectively looking to, that want to invest $1 today and in six weeks’ time, I want to have the chance of getting back $5. It was basically just cycling around money and cryptocurrencies trying to find ways to increase that, in the short run for your investors. We decided that wasn’t the business we were in. The business we were in was building long-term useful technologies, that maybe in the future ICOs will be built on our technology, but our thesis wasn’t to go and provide a quick flip for our investors. We took it a couple steps back, and we took some private investment from people who that were, believed in our long-term technology and vision.

Neyma : Now, to get to your exact question of, what’s the future of ICOs? Where’s it going to go? Well, I think, honestly, there’s going to be another Renaissance, with these work chains. In 2017, 2018, people would say, “I have an idea for a DApp that you can go and trade collectible caps on.” Okay, that one didn’t raise a lot of money, but just whatever. I have an idea for a DApp, that can do A, B and C. I think the next wave of liquidity and the game is not going to be based around DApps. I don’t think it’s going to be based around all these thousands of private public, all these public Blockchains everybody put out. I think most of those are going to die.

Neyma : I think it’s going to be people raising for their work chains, or for their private chains. I think what people have been building is DApps, for the past couple years. I think DApps are going to die. I think they’re going to become more or less irrelevant, aside from some basic financial and escrow applications.

Neyma : I think developers in the developer community are going to be building out their own private Blockchains. Public private hybrids, and they’re going to be raising money for this. Maybe they’ll still use ERC-20s. Maybe they’ll use another standard, but all the usefulness is going to be coming raising for these private Work chains for these private Blockchains.

Nye : Very interesting, very interesting. I think I know the answer, but for my audience, how do you think that’s going to look? Are we going to be seeing more equity raises? Are we going to actually still see token raises? I know what you’re doing with Unification is unique. I want to make sure we touch on that here. Correct me if I’m wrong, what you guys are doing is you’re selling tokens, but you’re only selling tokens to people who want to actually utilize the network and need the token to utilize the network? Am I right on that?

Neyma : Our fundraise, it’s been done a few different ways. We have provided some equity to investors. We also, with our token, we’ve taken a very unique model, where all tokens are inherently the same, but they can be sold into locked wallets. They can be put into lock wallets, and they can be put into unlocked wallets. Now, what’s very interesting about a locked wallet is any token in a locked wallet can only be used for one purpose, that’s paying network tax. If I have a work chain that needs to go and timestamp on to the main chain, I can go and use tokens within these lock wallets to go and do this. Which means effectively, and I can go and buy these tokens at a fixed predictable price, that likely is going to be below the free market rate.

Neyma : Now, this is very fascinating, because it allows me as an enterprise to effectively predict my cost for the next one, three, five, ten end number of years, because I know exactly how much I’m going to be able to go and buy these tokens for. Now, once these tokens are, you know, push to the validators, the miners, the forgers on the public Blockchain, those … We call them validators. Just use those different words, because people call them different things. Once those validators have them, those tokens are in an unlocked wallet, and they can use them to stake, so they can continue to become validators or they can go and sell them at free market rates.

Neyma : We’ve designed it in this way for ideal of usefulness. Yes, our foundation will be selling tokens, and our foundation will be collecting money but these tokens can only be used for useful things, which is actually using the network. We thought by doing this, is number one, we’re and we’re not pretending we’re not trying to go and raise money. It’s not like some of these ICOs where it’s like, oh, let’s just casually sell $50 million of our tokens, and then when we run out … We realize that, and I saw one of these native Blockchains recently had some FUD in the news that they ran out of money. Well, that’s because, and then we saw some other private Blockchain that recently had to go and by some company and do some token sale to raise more money.

Neyma : We’re very aware as a foundation that money runs out. If we can create an ecosystem where we’re constantly raising money, but we’re raising money by selling tokens that people can use for the network that won’t crash the price, then we’re going and doing something useful and we create longevity for that for our foundation. Does that make sense?

Nye : Yeah, I think it does. I think it does. I think that’s really, really interesting. Are you that this is kind of like the new form of the model that ICOs will be taking or what do you kind of see around that? Because I mean, it’s interesting, right? We have a whole new model of fundraising coming out right now, which is security tokens. We’ve seen the ICO model. It wasn’t that it was a bad model. It was more that people were selling utility tokens that just weren’t utility tokens. They weren’t being utilized for anything besides speculation on investment. I guess, my question is, do you think that the model that you’re creating right now is a possible new one? What do you think the future holds for something like this?

Neyma : All right, well, let’s take the most basic generic example [inaudible 00:41:18]. Uber on the Blockchain. Okay, that’s a really good example of a nice little unicorn idea. I think with ICO 1.0, some people probably tried to make [inaudible 00:41:29], which was Uber on the Blockchain, and obviously, it wasn’t getting anywhere because it was based around a speculative coin price. Let’s say in this new model that we described, somebody wanted to go make Uber on the Blockchain, how will it work? Well, they would go and create a private network. They would create their own private work chain, instead of it being ADAB, and they would go and sell … They would sell what I would call our inherently stable coins.

Neyma : I don’t think if … Okay, there might be some more money grab cycles coming up that we may or may not be able to predict. But in terms of practicality, if we get to the end game of things actually being used is most coins are not going to be speculative, Nye. I think that the era of having massively speculative coins is going to be regulated to the history of what a penny stock is. Going forward, if somebody wants to go and raise money, they could do it … If you believe in security tokens, they could do it as security tokens, which effectively means equity. I think there’s going to be equities/security token raises for companies that are going to build profitable business models by issuing more or less stable assets. Stable, interchangeable, swappable assets.

Nye : Okay, cool. That’s [crosstalk 00:42:52].

Neyma : Did I answer the question?

Nye : Yeah, you did. I like that a lot. I think that’s really, really interesting. Yeah, man. I like it. I think this has been a really good conversation. I mean, before we start to kind of wrap things up over here, I like I want to know, more specifically, and I think my audience would like to know more specifically, because you’re very interesting individual with the knowledge that you have, what are you doing with Unification? What is Unification?

Neyma : Very, very, very good question. We’ve gone through a lot of different iterations to really hit. We started off building Unification as a second layer. Our core team has a lot of enterprise experience and connections within the enterprise startup Silicon Valley world. We ended up starting as a second layer for data interoperability. We would effectively standardize or tokenize your data over the Blockchain and make it interoperable with other entities. As we evolved, and as we went through and took numerous consulting clients, because one of the core tenants of defining success is, what is somebody willing to pay you to do? Okay.

Neyma : We went and started with this. We developed this out and we took some clients. We quickly realized that what clients were willing to pay us to do, was to go and implement these private public Blockchain implementations for them. We’ve been doing that on our enterprise on our consulting end. On our foundation end, what we’ve done, we’ve created a hybrid model, which we like to call main chain and work chain. Main chain is a native Blockchain. It’s fully decentralized, and it’s powered by a unique staking model. We don’t necessarily need to get into the details about that. You can read more information if you like. What that does is, we have a system where we can deploy work chains, which are effectively, more or less private Blockchain implementations. Those private Blockchain implementations will then go and do their own consensus mechanism, usually through proof of authority. They will timestamp on to our main chain via, effectively a fixed cost.

Neyma : We’ve created a full 360-degree ecosystem, which maintains the native full public immutable Blockchain, and then also goes and deploys private Blockchains, which can timestamp onto maintain as a fixed cost. We’ve effectively created a 360-degree toolkit for usefulness in Blockchain for enterprises and developers. If that made sense in a nutshell.

Nye : No, I think it does make … I think what you’re pretty much saying is, you’ve created something very similar to what we’ve been talking about this entire time.

Neyma : Yeah, we want to make Blockchain useful again. We kind of skipped this whole, coin go up bullshit, and we went straight to how is this useful for everyday businesses? I mean, the market cap of cryptocurrency is literally nothing. I don’t know the exact numbers as of today, but it’s like literally … There’s people in Mexico richer than the entire market cap of Blockchain. We’re trying to get past this short sightedness into how this actually integrates with the mainstream with the mainstream, and we’re going directly for that.

Nye : I love it, man. I absolutely love it. Where can people learn more about Unification?

Neyma : Easy. We got

Nye : Perfect. Awesome, my man, I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on, dude. I really, really appreciate it. This has been, I mean, this is really interesting, because what we talked about today is potentially the way that this will all be utilized on a broad scale of things, rather than just kind of the speculation basis that we’ve been in over the last X amount of years.

Neyma : Yeah. This is the way. If you look at if you look at the history of technology, you look at the history of monetary society, this is effectively what happens. When you have new technologies, certain things happen, and the idea of that technology will take hold, and then that usually peters out pretty quickly. From the ashes of that comes entities and individuals who are building, who see past the short run, and they’re going and building useful technologies for the future. I think it’s very interesting, if you look at the history, you’ll find that teams and entities usually have about a three-year window from start into getting mass consumer adoption or mass adoption in their industry before they’ll effectively be overtaken by other teams and entities starting from scratch because their technology becomes obsolete.

Neyma : When I look at technologies being developed, if that team had had their go date three years, and they’re still not actually being used for anything useful, I usually assume they’ve probably reached the peak of what they’re going to be putting out there and you need to look to other teams.

Nye : I love it, dude. I absolutely love it. Awesome, my brother. Thank you so much for coming on. We’re going to cut it off right there. This has been honestly one of the most interesting conversations that I’ve had around this topic before. Thank you, brother. Thank you, so much. For everybody listening, you can go learn more about Unification at This has been another episode of the Evolving Podcasts, with me, your boy, Nye, where we talk about bitcoin, cryptocurrency and the future of our financial systems. Neyma, thank you so much [inaudible 00:48:55], man. Appreciate it [crosstalk 00:48:56] coming on.

Neyma : Thank you very much and have yourself a good day.

Nye : Definitely. Peace.

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