Can Blockchain Scale? With CasperLabs – Transcript

This is a transcript of the Podcast – Can Blockchain Scale? With CasperLabs – You can listen the audio here

Nye : What is going on everybody? What is going on? Welcome to another episode of evolvement, the financial podcast where we talk about bitcoin, cryptocurrency, and the future of our financial systems.

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Nye : Today I have a few very special guests in the room with me today. The Casper Labs Team, I’m gonna have them come in and introduce themselves but today we’re going to sit down, we’re going to talk a little bit about scalability and some of the issues that have been faced in the past and some of the solutions that are being built to solve those problems. So, welcome everybody.

Medha : Thank you.

Mrinal : Thanks for having us.

Nye : No worries, can we all just one by one do a little introduction of, we’ll start with yourself.

Medha : Yeah, sure, my name is Medha Parlikar, I’m the CEO of Casper Labs and we’re an R&D facility dedicated to building a scalable layer one block chain.

Nye : Cool.

Mrinal : Hi, I’m Mrinal Manohar, I’m the CEO of ADAPtive Holdings. ADAPtive Holdings is the holding company that funds Casper Labs.

Nye : Awesome

Steven : I’m Steven [inaudible 00:02:13], I’m the Chairman of ADAPtive Holdings and really great to be here again.

Nye : Glad to have you guys all in.

Nye : So, let’s dive into the scalability issue. How is Casper Labs created? Why was it created? And what are you guys working on solving?

Medha : Yeah, I’ll take that. So, Casper Labs is created at November 1st in 2018 and we are an outgrowth over recognition that there needed to be a project that’s fully focused on bringing to live Vlad Zamfir vision for CBC-Casper. And I have familiarity, I’ve worked with Vlad for about a year, year and a half, on another project and that project didn’t go so well, so we span out of that project to fully fund and bootstrap this work.

Medha : And our focus is really is on bringing that protocol to life. There isn’t a working implementation of the CBC-Casper protocol and we believe that the future of cryptocurrency and block chains is a more economically sustainable and environmentally sustainable protocol.

Nye : Okay, cool, and what was Vlads initial vision that spurred all this? What was the base of that?

Medha : Well Vlad believed the same thing that we all do here, that proof of work is not environmentally responsible. It burns a lot of energy, it is very secure as bitcoin, and Ethereum have proven out that these centralized block chains provide a level of security and stability and hardness. And it’s a wonderful thing, but it’s not sustainable. I don’t have the metrics off the top of my head, but I imagine the amount of energy consumed just in bitcoin mining rigs, and Ethereum rigs, are non-trivial. And energy is a finite resource that we have on this planet, and we have to find a more environmentally sustainable way to fuel this growth, this product growth.

Medha : So, his vision really started for that, and he did a lot of his seminal research around the ghost protocol, right? And that’s where the name Casper comes from, which is greedy, heaviest, observable sub tree, and it came out of research from two professors out of Israel actually. They did the initial work, and he pulled that in and then worked with other researchers in the space to come up with this concept of latest message driven. So LND driven ghosts, and that forms the basis of Casper.

Medha : It basically uses this concept of justifications. More than forming a blockchain, it forms this thing, what we look at as a braid. And it enables for a lot more scalability, because it’s not serial. It’s not that you have many blocks in the entire future to share future of all [inaudible 00:05:06]pushes forward in a shared machine state.

Mrinal : Yeah, and just to add to that a little, the reason why proof of work is environmentally not responsible is because, ninety to ninety-five percent of the processing power is used to generate random numbers, or hashes. Which would be okay, but the problem is once you’ve created those random numbers, they’re lost. There’s no utility. So if you could redirect that ninety to ninety-five percent of processing power to actually securing the network, and conducting transactions, there’s a better way to do this. The story I like to always tell is, proof of work systems have been around for ages, and they always go away. If you look at what the origins of it, proof of work was heavily used in email spam filters.

Mrinal : There was a time in the early 2000s, or late 90s where forty-five percent of all spam filtration was done via proof of work systems. Now it’s about point zero zero two percent. Similarly, like DDoS attack prevention was all proof of work, and then Cloud Flare completely up handed that model. So this is not, I guess what I’m trying to say is like this is kind of history repeating itself. It will happen. We’re just supporting research to accelerate that process.

Nye : And with you’re research are you finding that solely a proof of stake model is kind of the best solution? Or do you have like any belief, or any possibility that like, maybe there’s a dual model that might work, or even a third new model that might arise.

Mrinal : So I’ll start… Please, tell me if I’m wrong here. The hybrid is sort of… if you’re able to implement actual proof of stake, why keep the proof of work element at all? There might be certain one times that could require it, so I could see a hybrid, that might be able to work. But I think the second questions really interesting, like what if there’s a third thing, proof of something else? Proof of work and proof of stake aren’t new systems. There has been decades of research in[inaudible 00:07:27]. There’s been decades of research in networking. Dijkstra’s algorithm for network traversal, etc. A lot of the work that’s gotten the proof of stake, and proof of work is building on decades of academic research, and has had hundreds of people work on it. So it’s almost as there’s a proof of something, that’s a brand new system. It’s almost like saying you’ve invented calculus, right? Because it’s like, well the decades of research that are behind proof of work and proof of stake, aren’t really there. So maybe someone invents calculus. I’m not saying that’s not possible. But typically as a practical person, things that have decades of research behind them usually tend to be more resilient. That would be my view.

Nye : Makes sense.

Medha : And there’s plenty of space, room in the space to grow here as we do not have a working implementation of CBC Casper out there in the wild just yet, right? So, I believe that this is another step in the evolution of consensus protocols and blotching space, right? So we had the initial consensus protocols insured that pure proof of work systems and bitcoin and Ethereum and we’ve seen delegator proof of stake, taking a rather large swat at the space right now with [Eo’s 00:08:47] and some of the other larger chains that are out there. And I think the next evolution is going to be a decentralized, pure proof of stakes system where you don’t have block producers that are delegated, right? Anybody can join the network at any point in time. It’s completely decentralized and there is no proof of work, hashing required at all. One hundred percent of the computational power goes to work securing the network and processing transactions. And then once that has been in place [inaudible 00:09:17], sometime in the future that there will be some further innovation to improve upon that even more. I think the speed of performance of even the computational power in a cell phone now greatly dwarfs what we had in the eighties and I don’t see that slowing down anytime soon.

Steven : I Think when you look back at technological innovation, what you see is often times you’ll see the innovation, like the invention itself. Then you’ll see some point later the invention to scale the invention. And that’s, in that in itself a separate invention. Now often times it’s at the same level, or even higher, and so like look at the car. All right, so Benz invented the car, and then a number of decades later, Henry Ford invented the assembly line, which enabled us to scale the production of the car, as well as almost every other manufacturing industry. And even more recent examples where you can see Yahoo pioneered search, but it was not a scalable Manuel, model [inaudible 00:10:31]. And then google came in and came up with a new invention with the algorithms to scale search. And you can see Friendster really collapsed on it’s own weight, ’cause they couldn’t scale.

Steven : And Facebook came in and now it’s got three billion users, ’cause it figured out how to scale that model. So that whereas I think where we’re at. I seen them do some credible inventions that I think are gonna historically go down as two of the greatest ever, in terms of bitcoin and Satoshi, and Vitalik and Ethereum. Now you have to start one that figures out, “How do we scale those?” We’re working initially in the smart contracts area, potentially could extend till[inaudible 00:11:10].

Nye : On a super basic level, why is scalability an issue right now? I know that maybe it isn’t an issue right now, but it’s something that you’re preparing for in the future, when more users get in and start to adopt this technology and things like that. But, why is it an issue? What is the problem?

Medha : Well, I think if you look at the Ethereum blockchain right now, and you look at real world applications against Ethereum blockchain where businesses can actually use it. What you’ll find is that they’re not working against the public blockchain. They’re actually, they have done forks of Ethereum, and they have their own private flavor of Ethereum, and the number one reason is scalability. You find a lot of implementations of blockchain and what you’re seeing out there they’re all private blockchains, right? So they’re implementing the distributed ledger technology, but it’s neither public, nor decentralized, nor permissionless. And they’re doing that because of scalability. But then if you just oppose that against, what’s the number one value proposition of blockchain, it’s the immutability and [inaudible 00:12:14] immutability and permissionless, right? It’s the trustless environment, is really what we talk about when you talk about smart contracts. Okay so that’s really your number one value prop, and then you see all these implementations using private permission blockchains. Where’s the value prop? Right? So you’re basically taking the number one valued proposition in a blockchain and you’re putting a bullet right through the heart of it, right? If you’re going to do a private blockchain, you should just do a database. Right?

Mrinal : Yes.

Medha : Very little difference to that. In that case you’re looking at people like [inaudible 00:12:51] because they want to implement blockchain for its own sake. Not really looking at that the purpose of a block chain is that, there’s a hundred people, or a thousand servers that have run this transaction, and none of them trust each other. But you need that in a decentralized public environment, right? Private just doesn’t cut it. And that’s why we believe that scalability is the number one challenge. I think what’s going to happen is, we’re going to come full circle even in the blockchain space. You see a lot private implementations now, but people are gonna eventually realize that, that’s the same as the centralized database, right? I want to deploy my smart contract, I wanna deploy my transactions on a public permission list, decentralized blockchain. And that’s where we hope to step in and provide a solution for that.

Mrinal : Yeah, I think the lack of a fully decentralized and yet scalable solution. When I say fully decentralized, I mean as decentralized as bitcoin and Ethereum. I think that’s sort of what we’re aiming for, has actually limited people’s imaginations for using the blockchain. Because you’re thinking from one of two design constraints. Design constraint one is like, “Okay, there are these two or three ultra decentralized blockchains that people trust. I can put high value there, but I’m limited to seven to ten transactions per second.” Or its, “Hey, there are these blockchains that have some small element of centralization.” But even with a small element of centralization, you can’t put a ton of value on it, because you’d be violating fiduciary duties. Even if there’s a tiny chance of collusion. So, they’re fast, so I can put apps on it, but I’m not gonna put anything that’s tens of millions of dollars.

Mrinal : And so there’s these two design constraints that businesses have. And I think the moment you can say, “Hey this is fully decentralized and is fast enough for almost any application out there.” I think that’s when peoples imaginations will run wild. It’s the same reason why, right after IOS and Android came out, finally mobile phone apps just took off. People were trying all sorts of stuff with Nokia, etc. But, it wasn’t scalable. And the moment it became scalable, now there’s, I don’t know. Like a hundred thousand apps that have over a hundred thousand users, or some crazy statistic like that. We think that that moment hasn’t happened in blockchain, and fully decentralized scalability is what could trigger that.

Steven : Yeah, that argument turns on it’s head. A lot of critics of blockchain, they say, “Well if blockchains so usable it’s been around for ten years. Why aren’t we seeing use cases?” We think that the underlying technology is the reason you’re not seeing the use cases. And then once you give people the right rails,[inaudible 00:15:47]. And we say internet three point o, we should mean internet three point o. We should mean less than the internet, but then something else. It’s gotta be at least that standard in terms openness and lack of control by anybody. And then the extra from two to three.

Nye : So pretty much, on a very like, if I can simplify it, what Casper Labs is doing is you’re taking the barriers and the limitations out of blockchain right now. And you’re creating a solution that’s going to allow for it to be what everybody hopes and envisions it’s going to be.

Medha : Something that is real world usable, that is the hope and goal. A very good example of what makes proof of work systems difficult to use, is that the best practice right now is you have to wait a minimum of six conformations, right? And so immediately, it’s not just your transactions per second, but what’s the latency to conformation time, right? And so can I sit around and afford to wait for a minute for my transaction to be confirmed. And know for certain that it’s not gonna be reversed. Or, as adoption goes up, that number could even go higher, right? And so the Casper Labs blockchain that we’re building, and this is a feature of the CBC Casper proof of stake protocol, enables a very similar conformation mechanism that maps very well over to what merchants do today, right? So you can actually set the amount of safety you want, depending on the size of transaction, right?

Medha : So, if you have a MasterCard Black and you’re sitting there and you’re processing a hundred thousand transaction, it’s gonna take a little bit longer. Because it’s such a high value transaction, they’re actually going to do a lot more checks on that. And if you’re buying a cup of coffee, it’s almost instantaneous, and sometimes you don’t even need to sign, right? And this exact same model maps almost perfectly over to the CBC Casper protocol. You can have different levels of safety that you can wait on. So you can choose to wait, just the minute you submit the transaction, you get a conformation that the transaction was deployed, and you’re good to go. Because that validator that has included your transaction in it’s block, could have theoretically staked a hundred thousand dollars in the network, and is banking. They’re basically taking out a slashing risk, to propose your transaction. And that’s enough security for buying a cup of coffee. And that’s sub second, right? You’ll get that, send it out, and you’ll only need to get you’re transaction back depending on network latency. Internet latency for where you’re located.

Medha : And that maps very well over to current E-commerce today. And it enables a lot of real world transactions, and real world use cases to kind of come to light. They’d have a significant lower threshold than that even.

Nye : Awesome, and my next question, I’m not even sure if I’m gonna fully understand the answer to it. But how do you do something like this? Like how did you build a solution that is in the main struggle, or what does it even look like?

Medha : Oh boy, it certainly hasn’t been me, we have an incredible development team. I can tell you that one of the lead engineers working on CBC Casper, Michael Burch, is part of our team and he’s spear heading the effort. And he’s been working with Vlad for over a year, actually implementing the CBC Casper protocol. He understands it very well. We also have several mathematicians on board, that are working closely with Vlad on a regular basis to flush up details of the protocol. And you build it, you know kind of like eating an elephant. One bite at a time, right? So we’ve been working with this protocol for quite some time, and we’re very confident about it’s efficacy and it’s robustness.

Nye : Awesome. Does it have to do with anything, like any new specific methods? Like different sharding methods, or things like that? Or is it just something that’s probably gonna be way over my head to even answer?

Medha : No, I think it’s actually pretty interesting. So if you think about Ethereum today, you have the concept of the main chin, then you have this concept of uncles. And at a very simple, very basic rate, there’s no uncles in the Casper protocol. At least in what Casper Labs is building. There’s no notion of uncles per say. So you’ve got this concept of this quote main pair of chains. But in essence all of your block producers can produce blocks at the same time. So instead of having a chain, you’ve got like these streams of blocks. They basically, they have references to each other. So they build on each others appearance. So you get this concept of like a braid. And so you’re not single threaded you’re multi-threaded. So, if I’ve got ten block producers, and they’re all receiving deployments. They can all propose blocks at any point in time, at the same time. And as they see each others blocks, they build on each others blocks. And on building on each others blocks, they include those deployments in their own local state. And so, the network isn’t immediately consistent, it’s eventually consistent.

Medha : So, they have this concept of a shared future, right? Because I’ve seen the other validator blocks, we’re all marching towards the same destination. Therefore, we all agree with each other. It’s kind of like a concurrent blockchain. In that all these validator’s are working together to a shared future.

Mrinal : It’s a combination of that, and a combination of since you don’t have to let the blade deliver the point, but since you don’t have any proof of work component. You’re laser focusing all the processing power on doing this. That’s also a huge step up in performance. So the combination of that, and the fact that it’s multi threaded. It works much more similarly to like higher intel processor, or database system works. You have an eight core processor, with tons of threads, as long as there aren’t race conditions between them, they’ll run at the same time. Because the permissions have been, sort of preestablished.

Nye : Interesting.

Medha : We also have this very interesting property, so if you imagine, if you just take the Facebook example [inaudible 00:22:13], right? You can have, or even twitter, you can have many people liking your post, or retweeting a tweet. And that can all happen at the same time. None of those things conflict, right? So if I wanted to send you coin, and Mrinal wanted to send Steve coin. Those transactions don’t conflict, they don’t depend on each other, they can happen at exactly the same time. And so we have baked this logic directly into our platform, so this is a property, we’re calling a commutative property. So, transactions that don’t conflict, they can all merge at exactly the same time. And so, this is how were going to get quite a bit of scale in the system.

Nye : And that would solve a lot of the speed and potential backup problems that we saw happening, for example, on the Ethereum network, and the end of 2017, 2018 with like crypto kitties.

Medha : Exactly.

Nye : When things got clogged, and then I remember we would just get clogged. My Ethereum would be stuck there for twenty-four hours or longer.

Medha : That’s exactly right.

Nye : Okay, Cool. And how do you implement something like this? Are you implementing it into the Ethereum blockchain, or are you, you explained it as it’s own protocol, so how… I don’t even know.

Medha : We’re starting from scratch.

Nye : Okay.

Medha : We’re starting from the beginning.

Nye : Okay.

Medha : Yeah, we are building brand new peer to peer protocol, right? Because it all builds on top of itself. So we have a [mosum 00:23:39] based execution engine. And we will have a global state engine, that will work mosum. So we’re starting from first principles, from the ground up. We are learning from standing on the shoulders of giants, you hear, right? So we are learning from what Ethereum has done, what EOS has done, what bitcoin has done. We are learning from everybody in the space, and our intention is that our research will help lift everybody up, right? There’s a lot of first principal work that we’re doing. Commutative properties are like excellent example, right? Of something that we are building from the ground up. We tried to formally reason about these things, so we’re building, algebras, and mathematics, and specifying these things formally before actually translating them into code. That way we know we have a certain degree of confidence that it works. Because we’ve reasoned about it in a formal matter first. I think that’s really important, to make sure that we build something that’s secure and sustainable.

Mrinal : And while we will be an independent blockchain operating, I mean not we, I mean the validators will be operating a blockchain independently. We’re all huge fans of Ethereum. A lot of us have been involved in that project very early on. Either as investors, or advisors. So, we’d love to work with them, and if there’s elements in our research that are germane to them scaling it, we’re all about being collaborative with that community. We think it’s a great community.

Nye : That’s awesome. Very Interesting. The way you just explained that… I understood it, which is… like I’m not the most technical person at all, so thank you for explaining it like that. And what is the vision with the holdings companies? Is it just in direct relations with Casper Labs, you have other things going on as well? What’s the overall goal of what you guys have going on there?

Mrinal : Right, so Adaptive Holdings is where all the business decisions are made. We wanted the RND shop to have autonomy. Because we didn’t want technical decisions to be driven purely by a financial or other motive. And we think that level of independence is really helpful. But Adaptive Holdings will have to curate a lot of other things. Like do we want development funds that are really gonna help distributed applications get on to our chain? Do we wanna partner with Stake and Pools, so people can easily put stake on the network. What do we do like if exchange is wanted to a listing, who should they be calling up? When tokens need to be distributed, how is that gonna happen, etc. So there’s a group of, and you know there’s been no plan on any of these yet, we’re still waiting on guidance from counsel. But, there’s a bunch of non-technical decisions out there that need to be made. And we thought separating those two things is the right way to do it.

Steven : It’s a well placed model. Even if you look back to the early Ethereum days, there were two entities there. And originally there was the foundation, but there was also a for-profit entity that was going to guide, basically echo system development. And for whatever reasons in that case that they stopped using the for profit, but there have been many other protocols that have had entities that are driving the for profit, the echo system. We had to just become a participant though. Once the ships, this is an important part. We believe as decentralized as possible, and that’s the 88P by the way in adaptive, was as decentralized as possible. We are a early big participant in the network, but we’re nothing more than that. And over time our importance to the network hopefully diminishes quickly. Because the network is growing.

Mrinal : To that point it’s a permission [inaudible 00:27:57], right? So even if Casper Labs publishes a [inaudible 00:28:02] you have to convince the validators that they want to take it. We can’t force anyone to do anything. It’s a completely decentralized blockchain. We can curate, and convince, and try to make sure the entities act as sort of an interface to organize, but really at the end of the day, once our main [inaudible 00:28:24] is launched it’s your network. It’s not ours. We’re just a participant as Steven said.

Nye : And what does timeframe look like on this? How far in development are you, and things like that. If you’re allowed to share.

Medha : Oh yeah, for sure. So we have started cutting public releases of the node software. We released our node zero dot one software, gosh I wanna say February, with our launch, that’s when we released it. And we’ll be releasing another version in early April. Our goal is to release software every four to six weeks, on regular accidence. I think this is a very good and healthy exercise. Simply because the more you practice something, the better you get at it. Me personally and many members of the development team, we come from enterprise software. Got twenty years in both shipping and developing commercial grade software, for large distributor scale systems. And we have many development members on the team that have done the same thing. And so we know what it takes to build software that is hard, reliable, stable, and can be monitored. We understand very much the needs of the validators. In terms of can I monitor this software system, because I wanna make sure it’s gonna be up, and stable, and reliable.

Medha : Timeframes, boy that’s a big question. We’re trying to do something that’s not been done before, right? There is no working Casper protocol out there. It’s not like we are falling in someone else’s footsteps, we are blazing a trail. And there’s a lot of nuances around economic security of the network. Because this is pure proof of stake, and it’s decentralized, there’s very interesting things that can be done to quote on quote, “Economically gain or attack the system.” We can’t possibly match in all of those. We’re gonna try our very best to imagine as many potential attacks against the economic permitters of the system.

Medha : But timelines are very hard to speak of. We are hopeful that we can have a stable network that DAP developers can code against. Sometime in 2019, that is the goal. We understand and recognize that we want to put our arms around the community, so that we have engagement on the DAP development ecosystem in the platform. So the goal is to make that as accessible as early as possible. And we’re working with community members right now to start working with a node today. It’s out there, you can deploy code to it. You can observe a network being formed, you can observe a DAG. We actually have a cool DAG visualizer. I don’t know if that’s possible on the other blockchains, but you can actually see the DAG, and you can see the way that Casper Lab’s blockchain braid looks like. That’s a very interesting visualization tool that we ship with our software.

Nye : And how do you get people, I mean, you’re not there yet, but how do you plan, or what’s the vision on getting people to start developing on the blockchain?

Medha : Yeah, so we have a program for ecosystem development. I have someone on the team that is very a very senior, and seasoned executive, who has been building software for many decades. Who is in charge of the ecosystem, and he’s gonna be writing specifications, and laying out a vision for how we’re going to kind of almost build a one stop shop for DAP developers, right? What I see right now in the ecosystem is that I have to alter my contract to one place, and then I have to go to the test net. And my interactions with the test net are a little spotty. It’s very hard for the ADAPT developer, that hasn’t been working with blockchain to understand how does one interact with the blockchain? What does it mean to deploy my contract? And then how do I see my data structures inside my contract. I create these data structures and normally, if I’m working on Microsoft Visual Studio, it’s very obvious how I could step through my code, how I can watch variables, and how I can interact with the data structures that I’ve created in my application.

Medha : On the blockchain that is not so easy, at all. And so we recognize that there’s a real issue for developers to be able to actually interactively interact with the contract that they’ve created on the blockchain, the data structures they’ve created on the blockchain. And querying the blockchains state. So our intention, is to make it very easy. And an interesting analogy to that is if we all think back to the digital music age, the dawn of the digital music age. What Apple did with Itunes, was really just simplify user experience that already existed. The very early adopters in digital music age, got the CD, they got the ripper, they ripped the CD, they had their MP3 player. And then they ripped it, and then they hooked it up and then they moved the ripped music on and they made their playlist. And there you go. And what did Itunes do? What did Apple do? They said, “Oh, just download the software, stick your CD in there, hook up your Ipod, and you’re good to go. And that’s really what made everybody adopt digital music. Just because it made it very easy. And I think the exact same model applies here.

Nye : That’s what I’m waiting for. I’m waiting for the first DAP store.

Medha : Right.

Nye : I mean, I think we’re… we still have a ways to go before we get to something like that.

Medha : Well, I mean, creating an application for IOS and Android, is still pretty challenging. I mean, you still have to be a developer, and you still gotta get your app approved and all that, but I mean, if you think about it for developers, they’re used to tools like IDE’s and compilers, right? That’s their interface. What they need is something that sits right inside that interface. That enables them to understand the blockchain semantics and work [00:34:14].

Mrinal : That name is too good, I might steal it from you.

Nye : Which one?

Mrinal : Casper Lab’s DAP Store.

Medha : Yeah.

Mrinal : That is so good.

Nye : It’s perfect. And Steven, we were just doing an interview, and at the end of the interview, and even throughout the interview you kept telling me how excited you are about this project. And you haven’t been excited about a project like this in a long time. Can you share? I’d like to hear from everybody, but can you start? Share why you’re so excited about Casper Lab’s

Steven : Yes, so Casper and I have had a few exciting moments in blotching, first was when I learned about bitcoin. Second when I was involved with Ethereum in the early days. [inaudible 00:34:55] was the security tokens T0 in particular. This one, is as any of those, maybe more so in some ways. I see as blotching, you’ve had all these idealistic goals of changing the world, and web three point o, trust less, decentralized, freedom, all these things. And that’s all great, but you gotta get two people. So the theory needs to like kind of go away.

Steven : The hard thing is telling it to stop. And like as an industry, we either kind of need to put up, or shut up. So like we need to deliver the rails, that billions of people can go on and that the value of the world will go on to it. And we’re talking about numbers and zeros that we’ve never even imagined in our lifetime. In various Sub secs of the whole DAP section, who knows what that’s worth? The whole security tokens, who knows what that’s worth? But these are numbers that we’ve never dealt with, these are explosions that we value, that we’ve never experienced. And yet, we haven’t yet figured out where all this stuff is going, and when we talking, blockchain, blockchain, blockchain. We don’t have a scalable, fully decentralized blockchain. We’re kind of getting a little ahead of ourselves.

Steven : If you look back at the internet, the internet was a very different experience.In sixties they started building out the Arpanet. We spent thirty years doing that, until you actually had, you know the 90s, finally they agreed on a protocol, that was scalable. TCPIP, and then we’re all agree, we’re going to use TCPIP, and that was the precursor to the Netscape one. When Netscape came out, and that moment all of the sudden was the moment that the commercial internet started. So all that thirty years of history, governments, universities, and other people working together in concert to try and get to that point. And we’ve got a bunch of teams around the world despaired, they’re not talking to each other, and there’s all of this tribalism, and this ones right, and that ones right, we kind of need to all kind of come together and work together and get that one basic protocol, or number of protocols. Even if they’re used case ones. Nothing happens until you have the internet, TCPIP, and then you had Netscape

Steven : And then all of the sudden we saw like amazing things. And like the phones that we hold in our little computer pockets is really a direct result of[inaudible 00:37:29] two point O revolution. I came as a result of that. Now we don’t have the rails to go to three poin O. So all these great things are like on the drawing board, and they’re not going anywhere until we actually have it so. To me this is, we talk about remittance, well that’s great. Unless you can actually get this tuff all the way around the world, then help poverty, and everything in these other parts. Until you can get everybody on to web three point O, you’re not gonna be helping them.

Steven : We’re not gonna have all these fascinating explosions that we’re expecting to happen. Medah, we were going to do it. And some of what Vlad created was super exciting to me, because it at a very basic level, allows the world to potentially experience web 3.0.

Nye : I love it, I absolutely love it. You guys have any different answers you wanna add?

Medha : I’ll throw one in here. So for me, what really excites me about this project is, the opportunity to build a scalable protocol. But I see crypto currency as one of the most amazing equalizers that we have in terms of helping, bringing about dramatic change, both in the financial markets. I mean I would go as far as to say that it’s going to radically shift commerce and money, and money systems, and financial systems in such a way that it will help the average individual. I feel that right now, things are so heavily tipped this way. So you’ve got the people that can take advantage of the financial markets, and then you have all the other people that are gerbils on wheels.

Medha : And they can participate in this. And I really see everything that we’re dong in crypto as it means to as a rebalancing. And I think it’s profoundly important for us, and I see it also bringing us together, like it’s a global currency. The beautiful thing is that they didn’t even see this coming. From a financial market stance, nobody saw this coming. Just came out like a thief in the night, and boom! Suddenly it’s here. And now we have an opportunity, and I believe that it’s so important to have a permission list decentralized blockchain, because if we don’t do this, they will. JP Morgan is already trying to come out with it’s own blockchain, like really? Sorry, but it’s true, right? It needs to be owned by everybody, the blockchain needs to be owned by everybody. Just like bitcoin is owned by everybody and nobody. I believe that even a smart contracting platform such as Ethereum. And hopefully the Casper Labs blockchain will be owned by everybody and nobody. And if it isn’t, I see it as an existential risk, where governments control money digitally. Do not want that. Like that’s the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night. That’s why I push so hard to build this thing as fast as we can, as good as we can.

Nye : I love it. I absolutely love it.

Mrinal : From my perspective, what really excites me about this project, it’s similar, I’m probably just saying the same thing, just phrasing it slightly differently. This product to me is tectonic shift three. And I’ll tell you what I mean by that. In my opinion, and this might be an opinion people disagree with, but there have been only two real tectonic moments in the blockchain industry. Like a lot of stuff has happened, but it’s stuff that really matters.

Mrinal : Like when Steven was talking about the internet, it was Arpanet, TCPIP, Netscape, right? Something was created, it was made smart, and then was scaled. And so in this industry, I think tectonic moment one, was knocking moto consensus. And what got me excited about it, I learned about it in 2010, but I only started buying bitcoin in 2012, the one insight that a minor told me was, “You’re not getting this, this is about copy protection. It’s not just about digital money. ‘Cause like no ones ever figured out copy protection. And that’s when it like hit me. I was like, “Wow, the implications are huge.” So the diddle asset was born. And so that was tectonic shift one in 2009.

Mrinal : Five years later, in 2014, tectonic shift two. Victalik, and the rest of his team at Ethereum, sort of proposed instead of referencing a static ledger, let’s reference the state of a virtual machine. And this, I mean people use the word smart contract, but really what it’s doing is, you can add conditionality now to the digital asset. Transfer X if Y happens. Do not if it does not. Or transfer less if Y happens but to a lower degree. And so, when you think about that, just think about the number of contracts there are out there for exchange of financial instruments, all of that can be out of the way [inaudible 00:42:45]. So that was tectonic shift two, right? We created the asset, we made it intelligent.

Mrinal : I really think this, like I find Casper Labs so exciting because I think it could be tectonic shift three. How do we scale this? And there’s a nice symmetry, five years, 2009, 2014, 2019. That’s what makes me excited about this, it could be the next tectonic shift. And someones gonna do it. Someone is going to build a fully decentralized scalable system. We’re just helping lead the charge, and we’re very collaborative and anyone trying to do the same thing we’d love to work with them. We think this needs to happen. So, super excited.

Nye : I love it, very exciting stuff. Thank you guys for joining, is there anything else you’d like to add?

Mrinal : Nope, just thanks for having us.

Medha : Thank you for having us.

Nye : Thank you.

Steven : My pleasure.

Nye : And where can people learn about Casper Labs if they wanna learn more, or if they maybe wanna participate, or support. What website can they go to or resource.

Medha : Check out our website, And all of our social channels are there, you can read our technical specifications as well, and our GitHub of course.

Mrinal : And we’re pretty active on our telegram channel. T.Me/CasperLabs. So if anyone wants to talk to us directly, myself, Steven, Medha, Scott, we’re pretty active there. We like to engage as much as possible with the community.

Nye : Awesome.

Steven : Go to our good ole’ crypto twitter.

Nye : Good ole’ crypto twitter.

Mrinal : Can always go there.

Nye : Always go there. Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining us this is really exciting stuff.

Mrinal : Thanks for having me.

Medha : Thanks for having us.

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